Gary Moller's response to Janette Fitzsimons interview with Paul Henry
(Click on the image above to see the Closeup Video. You have to wait for the ad to run before viewing the programme.)
It is time for politicians to stop playing politics, including stopping obfuscating the facts. It is time for leadership. It is time for solutions that are in the best interests of the consumer and the environment. The Branz reports here are ample evidence on their own that there are numerous warrantable issues, including the matter of discolouration of panel surfaces. These reports present a compelling case for some kind of product recall, probably dating back to 2003 when building consents became mandatory for most SWH installations.
Some experts claim there is no evidence that a change of colour of the collector surface has an adverse effect on performance. To make such claims flies in the face of the most basic rules of the physics of light. In this video I go back to school to give a lesson:
you are welcome to leave a message in the "Comments" below.
I am working on a new page for solar water heating systems that appear to be going the distance. This is to assist consumers with making good choices because the Government's guide, http://www.solarsmarter.org.nz/ is of little real help when it comes to the crunch of making a really informed decision.
So, come back this way now and then and please tell people you know who are into solar to do the same. Thank you.
posted by Gary Moller @ 9:54 AM
11 Comments
11 Comments:
Interesting what you have uncovered Garry, with the solar panels.
Back in July '05 I had cancelled my installment of a solar system from Sola60, Tauranga, and got my deposit back because they were adamant that I did not need a permit to have it installed, even when my insurance company suggested it.
Speaking to the Hamilton City Council at the time, they too said it was necessary whenever there is any major construction added to a roof.
I am one of the lucky ones but I am prepared to support the unlucky homeowners if needed.
Thank you.
we have a sola60 system installed, and in less than 6 months the panels (over 40%) are showing signs of "corrosion"
There are also problems with regard to the installation as outlined in the BRANZ report
Gary
As a solar reseller in the far North, I offer you congratulations, and thanks, for the work you have done so far on solar.
The sad thing is that it has taken one dissatisfied customer to undertake what the combined efforts of EECA, SIA, and BRANZ had not yet uncovered, with all their resources.
Although not having letters to my name, I have 16 years owning a TELARC accredited cylinder testing station, and 12 years at very high pressure hydraulics.
It was very apparent to me at the Wintec solar course 3 years ago, that there was a vast difference between the topline solars and the rest, even though the prices were similar.
My judgement has proved, unfortunately, correct.
Over the last year I have been made aware of quite a number of the popular brand solar HWC syatems up here that have ceased to function.
You have covered this, may I offer you a few more thoughts based on my experience.
One thing with flat plate solar not yet mentioned is the fixing of the collector plates to the vertical tubes inside the collector:
This junction, even if ultrasonic welded copper, MUST be airtight,or the ensuing oxide will form a very effective barrier.
Evacuated tubes:
The industry must tread very carefully here as well.
The "U" tube collectors designed and installed in Europe, such as Azzuro, seem to be not giving trouble.
To go with our Governments requirement for CHEAP, I looked at "heatpipe" evac tubes.
With one system really underperforming, I changed the complete tubes with another Chinese brand - They hardly worked at all!
Why ?
I suspected the tubes were not filled with fluid, as required to transmit heat, and worked out a way to check this:
Tube type 1
Fully 50 % had little or no fluid inside !
Tube type 2 ( the excellent looking fullysealed units, with white plug.)
As the evac tube must be smashed to check, I have only done a few of these. - They must use a different principle, as I havn't found one with ANY fluid in !
Tube type 3
These, the best, seem to have one in thirty with NO FLUID, but 20% seem underfilled.
Incidentally, we had one of the sealed units on display separately on our stand at Dargaville Fieldays last March.
At 9.30 am it ran off our thermometer scale at 150C
Great !
At 1pm, with a stand full of people, the whole tube blew up - BOOM
Not so good !
My worry with evac tube heat pipes, is that, inside the tube is an interface between the heatpipe and the aluminium transfer plates in there.
Azzuro, when assembling, are fastidious that this joint must be extremely tight on their utubes, with a silicon compound to keep out the air on the joint.
The other evac tubes I have looked at had ill fitting tubes, with nil jointing compound. They HAVE to oxidise!
Let's at least check out this ppotential problem before our customers have to.
A difficulty in the heat up here has surfaced:
The Glycol in systems unserviced for 5 years has changed its PH, turning into a lovely acid that eats its host. Not nice !
There ARE very good systems out there
It is up to us in the Industry to try no more to cover up our problems, and together, offer the consumer and the planet the savings we promise.
Best Regards
Mid Beckett
gosolar.org.nz
this was the situation with our solar system.
the solar hart panels and cylinder run a glycole heat exchange system when you run this system on the roof in a rural situation were your roof water is collected . the leaking glycole runs straight into your drinking water.
something i'm sure authorities haven't thought about. and something i'm sure can't be good for you
Dear gary
After seeing the article on close up with regards to solar panels ,I felt compelled to write and tell you of my exsperience with solar hart solar system. We recently bought an eight year old house with the solar hart system on the roof. After several months in the place, it came to my attention that our power bill was over 400 dollars a month. So i did some investigation . What i found astounded me. The cylinder and the panels were both rusted so badly the fluid had all leaked out and the system and it seemed to be working backwards, taking heat out of the cylinder and putting it into the atmosphere. I new enough about the system to know i needed outside help.
So i made an appiontment with the localsupplier and installer to see what my options were. His response also astounded me. Not only to he not offer any solution whatsever, which I knew would be out of warranty and was fully expecting to pay for, but he then started to blame me for the problem. I couldn't believe what I was hearing, we had been in the place maybe six months and the state of corrosion to the cylinder and panels could not have happened in that time. Even after eight years I was extremly suprised. I was under the impression it took between five and seven years to get your money back.
To make a long story short I pulled the hot water system off the roof and put a normal hot water cylinder in the house . Doing this saved me over two hundred dollars a month. but I am still interestd in at least the idea of solar hot water. I have been hearing of the vaccum tubes and would be interested in any feed back good or bad of this system.
Hi Gary ,
At this moment the greens are talking about organising more training
My comment on this :
- training is only for plumbers, installers ….
- Nationwide training is far away from being organised
The existing training in Hamilton is given by 3 nice and friendly men , with the best effords !
But could be evaluated as follows
- the teachers admitted they didn’t have much experience themselves !
- There were a few NON-plumbers as well …so where is the technical entry requirement
If just anyone can become accredited after this training !
- There were also a few builders , and of course they were interested ….
But all this people were having one thing in mind …
The solar system should be cheap ….! Peformance wasn’t important !
Another critic : they only show the 2 Solarsystems they received for free from 2 suppliers
All the other possible good stuff was not showen because the school had to pay for the material
In this way they give the impression these systems are the very best ….and create misunderstanding
What is the use of organising training if the training is NOT about:
- using the right system on the right place
- basic solar information on diffuse-direct energy , sunny hours, solar irradiation
- performance , efficiency and heat losses of the different systems
- quality and sustainability of all the systems
- maintenance : antifreeze and other aspects
- durability of materials : stainless steel or copper or plastic ????
- stratification of cylinders and importance + working principle of solar controllers
- back up systems and their efficiency
- other safety equipment , expansion tanks , aeration
Only a few of these aspects were quickly mentionned but no real answer could be given !
Important basic information and objective choices were lacking !
I quote one plumber on the evaluation “ that he still didn’t know which system he should recommend to his clients “
I quote a trainer : “ what you install doesn’t matter …as long as the way you do it is correct !”
( meaning if the system is rubbisch , and you install it correct …there will be no problem ! )
Some examples : not mentioned in the training
- Solar collectors can start corroding because of condensation …ways to avoid condensation ?
- Some Cylinder materials can not resist higher temperatures than 80 ° celsius
- Vertical cylinders have better stratification than horizontal ….thus higher efficient
So I reckon , that if plumbers will be trained on this level
There still will be a lot of confusion and misunderstanding …the result is bad informed plumbers
Many ‘wrong’ systems and wrong materials will be installed and nothing will change in the coming years
(It will even get worse as the interest for solar energy is growing every year )
My advice …as a professional trainer (as ‘solar expert’ from europe trained in many European countries)
- create desire on all levels of society by organising basic trainings on application+possibilities+economics
- organise professional trainings at u niversity (architects-engineers)
- organise professional trainings for plumbers
- train the trainers on solar energy
- government has to install a lot of systems themselves ( swimming pools…public)
- improve your quality system and control on suppliers goodwill
- Certify all the systems on material choice …but also on performance in kilowatthour/m² /year
In Europe …if a supplier doesn’t have this quality-performance certificate his system will not be subsidised
I have suggested EECA , SIA and the greens that I want to help in this training program
And that I had been involved as a trainer of trainers …on all levels
NO REACTION or INTEREAST so far ….
Meanwhile I started my own workshops at sustainable living centre –Waitakere
And I organised 4 workshops for architects …last May
At this moment I have been invited by several architects for morning tea session in Auckland
BBE in Wellington is planning another workshop in Wellington
Koanga Gardens ( Kaiwaka) will also organise many workshops with me
I can not wait until the government really acts …it can take too long
And the work has to be done NOW …..there is a lot of experience in the world
New Zealand is lacking behind and should not make the same mistake as Europe 15 years ago !
This is my mission since 15 years …solar energy is my passion
If I can help you in Wellington …let me know
Alexander Craig from BBE is organising this workshop ….
Many regards ,
Eric Jansseune
European Solar Engineer
Environmental engineering
www.ewa-tec.com
cell 021 022 31 700
office 09/411 91 59
All very confusing, I am keen to install solar hot water but struggle to find independent info re which is the best system to use. Outlay is high would want to sure get 20 years at least with no issues. Each company tells you theirs is the best , only one told me to get a permit. cost at least $7000 and then there is the interest on that at 9% to pay off, I have heard getting the $500 subsidy can be a bit tricky, esp if you dont have a permit. I am totally confused and have no idea what to do.
Thanks Gary for an excellent site. I recently started to look around at Solar water heating systems and have been suprised by the lack of basic knowledge the various suppliers and installer have on their products, performnace, ROI, and comparitive efficiencies between their own systems. Sunshine in Christchurch recommended that I talk to their local expert in Auckland to provide me with the advice I needed. When I contacted the guy he told me he hadn't installed a single solar system yet and couldn't give me any advice! (And this is one of the suppliers/systems the government is offering home owners a subsidy on!)
It seems that what is needed is some quality training - definitely not what the industry is currently doing.
The smartersolar web site is a bad joke. Amazingly little information of any use to a home owner trying to make an intelligent choice. Has Janette actually seen the site that she recommends?
I think that the real situation is that SWH is such a marginal technology from an ROI point of view that well made products have pay backs in excess of 20 years and because there is little profit the industry has not attracted capable technical people.
Please keep up the good work.
Thanks Gary for an excellent site. I recently started to look around at Solar water heating systems and have been suprised by the lack of basic knowledge the various suppliers and agencies have on their products, performnace, ROI, and comparitive efficiencies between their own systems.
Sunshine in Christchurh advised me to talk to their local expert installer in Auckland to discuss my requirements. When I contated their local expert installer he told me that he new very little about the product and hadn't as yet installed or sold a single solar system! (And they are one of the suppliers/installers that the government will offer a homeowners a subsidy to install!)
What is going on!?
It seems that what is needed is some quality training - definitely not what the industry is currently doing.
The smartersolar web site is a bad joke. Amazingly little information of any use to a home owner trying to make an intelligent choice. Has Janette actually seen the site that she recommends?
I think that the real situation is that SWH is such a marginal technology from an ROI point of view that well made products have pay backs in excess of 20 years and because there is little profit the industry has not attracted capable technical people.
Please keep up the good work.
Have you got any 2009 - 10 updates to put on the website?
Has there been any change to the general situation?
Along with a lot of others, I would sure like to hear this.
Mid Beckett
Mid
The last update (2010) was to do with an inquiry from Portugal - see above.
Not much has changed at all: Still a lot of rubbish out there and a lot of customers who have not had their problems addressed. Meanwhile, they go on selling the substandard products.
Of course there is some good stuff out there, but the message remains clear - be very cautious and make sure you have a close look at existing setups before you buy. Agencies like the Consumer's Institute and EECA have let us down badly in my opinion - so do the research yourself.
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